Mike Pence on populism, the future of the Republican Party | Nation & World

Former Vice President Mike Pence talks about the conservative movement, American leadership and world affairs. He joins host Lynn Schmidt, columnist and St. Louis Post-Dispatch editorial board member, in the latest episode of the “What Keeps You Up At Night?” podcast.

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Episode transcript

Note: The following transcript was created by Headliner and may contain misspellings and other inaccuracies as it was generated automatically:

Lynn Schmidt: Hi, my name is Lynn Schmidt, and welcome to the What Keeps You Up at Night? Podcast, the show where we discuss the big issues and worries facing America and the world, and then begin the conversations about how we can go about solving them. I am a columnist and editorial board member with the St. Louis Post Dispatch. It is my pleasure to welcome Vice President Mike Pence to the podcast. Vice President Pence served as the 48th Vice President of the United States from 2017 to 2021 under President Donald Trump. He also served as the Governor of Indiana, as well as a member of the House of Representatives. He is currently running for the Republican presidential nomination. Welcome to the podcast, Mr. Vice President. Mr. Vice President. What keeps you up at night?

Mike Pence: Well, and thank you for having me on the podcast. I appreciate it very, you know, I think this is a very challenging time in the life of our nation and also in the wider world. I think American families are struggling over the last two and a half years under the worst inflation in 40 years. We have a border crisis the likes of which we've never witnessed in our nation's history. Energy prices continue to put an enormous burden, and of course, war raging in Eastern Europe, war in Israel, China's, continued provocations. For me, and my part, I am determined to do my part to ensure that our nation and our party have new leadership. And, that's been the focus of our efforts since, we announced our campaign. And we're going to continue to fight to restore American prosperity and security.

Populism versus conservatism

Lynn Schmidt: You recently gave a speech, populism versus conservatism Republicans. Time for choosing. I suggest that Republicans have already made their choice, but I was hoping we could talk a little bit about populism versus conservatism. You, said in that speech that populism would lead the Republican Party to ruin, that the populist swing of the party would substitute faith in limited government and traditional values for an agenda stitched together by little else than personal grievances and, performing outrage, and that these Republican populace would abandon American leadership on the world stage, embracing a posture of appeasement in the face of rising threats to freedom. This last part concerns me very much, as well as both the senators from my home state of Missouri oppose further support of Ukraine. Can you speak to this isolationist posture as how it relates to supporting Ukraine?

Mike Pence: Well, Lynn I think, look, the American people are going to face a choice in 2024, but in the Republican Party, I wanted to go to New Hampshire and lay out what I believe is the choice that Republican voters face in our primary. And it's whether we're going to continue to hew, to, our long standing commitment to a strong, defense American leadership in the world limited government, fiscal responsibility, traditional values, and the right to life, or whether we're going to follow what I call the siren song of populism unmoored to conservative principles. I still believe, Lynn, that the majority of Republican voters believe in that, ah, agenda really brought to the fore in our country in the days of Ronald Reagan. But there's no question that there's a vigorous debate. We’ve got people in our party that are walking away from a, commitment to advancing the cause of the right to life. Want to relegate that issue only to the states. I've been a champion for life throughout my career. Would continue to be if I have the privilege of being President. There are people in our party, including my former running mate, that won't even talk about tackling the national debt reforming entitlements. We're the party of fiscal responsibility and reform, and if I'm President, we'll continue to be. But to your point, the Republican Party has always stood for the principle, that we're the leader of the free world, we're the arsenal of democracy, and that, it is the role of America, as Ronald Reagan articulated, not only to defend our nation, but to stand beside those that are defending their freedom around the world. There was something Ronald Reagan called what came to be known as the Reagan Doctrine. It was, 1985. He essentially said, here's the deal. If you're willing to fight the Communists in your country, we'll, give you the means to fight them there with your soldiers so we don't have to fight them, Lynn. It's part of what brought down the Soviet Union. And, I believe that, military support for the soldiers in Ukraine who are fighting against the unprovoked, unconscionable Russian invasion is consistent with that longstanding Republican principle. Standing, with people that are fighting for their freedom in Ukraine, standing, without hesitation, with Israel as they fight against terrorists of Hamas, in the wake of that horrific terrorist attack on October 7. And, frankly, standing strong in the Asia Pacific as China continues its provocations, I believe, is essential for our security and for the peace and security of the wider world. And, I believe Republicans, are uniquely positioned to provide that kind of strong leadership, and I'm going to continue to be a voice for that. While many in our party are sounding retreat, in Eastern Europe, and even some, are joining a chorus of restraint, when it comes to Israel's right of self-defense.

Lynn Schmidt: Yesterday, Representative Matt Gates said on Steve Bannon's podcast, the swamp is on the run. MAGA is ascendant. And if you don't think moving from Kevin McCarthy to MAGA, Mike Johnson shows the ascendance of this movement and where the power in the Republican Party truly lies, then you're not paying attention. So I guess I would ask you again, do you think there's still time to choose, or has that ship already sailed?

Mike Pence: Oh, I think, this is a Republican time for choosing. And, look, I was the Republican Conference Chairman, during my twelve years of Congress, and, I must tell you, I never hesitated to battle against the big spenders in my own party. People know my reputation. I fought against the Wall Street bailout, I fought against no Child Left Behind in the prescription drug bill. But never in my worst day, Lynn, would I ever have, thought, of working with a handful of Republicans and every Democrat in Congress to throw out a Republican Speaker. And I must tell you that the Chaos Caucus, can, spin this transition into Congress however they want. But at the end of the day, I'm pleased that Republicans have finally settled on a sound, principled conservative, in Speaker Mike Johnson, but honestly, I would have rather seen Kevin McCarthy continue in that role. Steve would have been an outstanding, you know, at the end of the day, I'm just glad that, the methods of the Chaos Caucus, that started all this a few weeks ago appear to have been abandoned, by the House Republican Conference. Because it's time to get back to work. Secure our border, revive our economy, ensure that our military and our allies around the world have the support they need. And I'm grateful that, Mike Johnson and Republicans in Congress came together to set the stage to do just that.

Lynn Schmidt: So if the Republican Party rejects the traditional conservative values that you and I believe in, which again, to me, it kind of looks like that's what they're doing, and further embraces populism. What do you think that ruin would look like? Ruin of the party?

Mike Pence: Well, look, we've had populist movements throughout the history of this country and, I simply believe that Republicans have an obligation to offer the American people a choice, not an echo. Look, we already have a party that is prepared to abandon American leadership on the world stage. Joe Biden has been practicing the politics of appeasement since he came into office, and, I think he's emboldened the, enemies of freedom around the world early, appeasement toward Russia, in authorizing the Nordstream Two pipeline, the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan, begging Iran to get back in the Iran nuclear deal, I think have all created conditions where our adversaries and enemies have been moved to act. And I think Republicans need to offer a clear alternative to that on fiscal responsibility. We already have a party that believes in big government, runaway spending and deficit and debt. So Republicans need to offer a solution. And also, we already have a party that supports abortion on demand all the way up to the moment of birth. I joined the Republican Party back in the days of Ronald Reagan because I believe in limited government, a strong defense, traditional values and the right to life. And I, still believe, Lynn, that the majority of Republican voters hold to those things. And I'll also tell you that the reason I believe that is because that's how we governed in the Trump Pence administration. That was our agenda. And one of the messages that I've been delivering is that Donald Trump, when he ran in 2016, promised to govern as a conservative. And we did. Appointing conservatives to our courts and passing tax cuts and unleashing American energy and rebuilding our military. But, people need to know. Donald Trump makes no such promise today. Won’t talk about fiscal, responsibility and reform, actually is advocating a massive tax increase on all goods imported into the United States from anywhere, in the world. he is joining a chorus of others that are, astounding the retreat, as war rages, in Eastern Europe, and he and others want to relegate the question of abortion to the states only when if I'm president, I'll be a champion for, the right to life and seek to move protections, even at the national level, even as we champion protections of the unborn in one state after another.

Why did you step forward in this campaign?

Lynn Schmidt: Before we wrap up, is there anything you wanted to share about how your campaign is?

Mike Pence: We're just, we're working hard. I said not long ago, it's become obvious in the last few weeks, there's some people that have more money than me, but nobody's got more experience. And I will tell you, Lynn, the reason my wife and I stepped forward in this campaign is because I think the country's in a lot of trouble. I think Joe Biden has weakened America at home and abroad. And when I looked at my experience, serving this country at home, and around the world as Vice President, leading a successful conservative state here in Indiana as Governor, and serving as a conservative leader in Congress for twelve years, I thought of that old verse that says to whom much is given, much will be required. And, we just felt an obligation, in fact, a duty, to step forward, every bit. As long as we have the ability to make that case and to be in that fight, we're going to stay in that fight. But I'll never stop fighting for the conservative values that have animated my life. And it's those values and those principles that carried us into this campaign.

Meeting Iowa caucus voters

Lynn Schmidt: So I've met you a couple of times on the campaign trail in Iowa. How has your reception with Iowa caucus voters been?

Mike Pence: Karen and I have loved it. We've been to 49 counties in Iowa out of 99, so we're about halfway there. And, Iowa, it's living rooms. It's, barns, it's, ah, stop into a Pizza Ranch. I know that people tend to think that, campaigning is about great big rallies, and sometimes it is. But in Iowa, what I love about it is, it's very personal, very down to earth, and the chance for people to get to know Karen and me for who we are, not, for whatever image we might have. Gleaned it's one of the things, Lynn, I came to realize I'm well known, but I'm not known well. People, I think, mostly know me as that loyal Vice president standing alongside the President quietly, every day of our administration until my oath to the Constitution required me to do otherwise. But, they don't know me as a conservative leader in Congress, a conservative governor. They don't know me, as a husband, the father, of two kids that are serving in the military today, and their families. And, ah, I'm always struck, Lynn, after we leave one of these sessions, people will grab some of our staff and say, I didn't know he had a sense of humor. I get that we all end up, being defined by the roles that we play from time to time, but that's what I've loved about Iowa. The warm reception that we've gotten, has been incredibly encouraging to me.

Lynn Schmidt: Well, I personally wanted to thank you for, upholding your oath to the Constitution on the day that it seemed to matter most.

Mike Pence: Well, Lynn, thank you for that. There almost not a day goes by, that people from, every walk of life and every political background don't take a minute to stop and to express that. And I always answer it the same way. It was God's grace, going into that day and the controversies, never imagining the violence that would ensue, I knew what our duty was, and, it was simply to keep the promise that we'd made with my left hand on Ronald Reagan's Bible on January 20, 2017. And if I have the privilege of being President of the United States, I want people to know that I'll always support and defend the Constitution, so help me God.

Lynn Schmidt: Again, I want to thank Vice President Pence for joining me today on the podcast. I hope listeners enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Make sure you subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast platform so you won't miss an episode of what keeps you up at night.