Emil Frankel, a former U.S. assistant secretary for transportation policy, joins the podcast to break down the Israel-Hamas war in understandable terms.
With host Lynn Schmidt, columnist and St. Louis Post-Dispatch editorial board member, he also discussesΒ greater threats to democracy here and abroad. The two ex-Republicans also laud President Joe Biden for his foreign policy accomplishments.
Related reading
- President Biden's address to the country on 10/19/2023.
- This Atlantic Magazine piece recognizes General Mark Millay as a patriot who protected the U.S. Constitution from former President Donald Trump.Β
Episode transcript
Note: The following transcript was created by Headliner and may contain misspellings and other inaccuracies as it was generated automatically:
Lynn Schmidt: Hi. My name is Lynn Schmidt, and welcome to the What Keeps You Up at Night? Podcast, the show where we discuss the big issues and worries facing America and the world, and then begin the conversations about how we can go about solving them. I am a columnist and editorial board member with the St. Louis Post Dispatch. I will be interviewing experts and politicians from across the country, from right to left on the political spectrum, as well as spanning the generations.
Lynn Schmidt: It is my pleasure to welcome Emil Frankel to the podcast. Emil is currently an independent consultant on transportation policy and public management issues and a Senior Fellow at the Eno Center for Transportation. He was Assistant Secretary for Transportation Policy of the US. Department of Transportation from 2002 to 2005. After being appointed by President George W. Bush, Emil played a key role in the coordination and development of the administration's proposal to reauthorize the federal highway, transit and highway safety programs. He received his bachelor's degree from Wesleyan University and his law degree from Harvard Law School, and was a Fulbright Scholar at the Manchester University in the United Kingdom from 1981 to 1984. And from 1985 to 1997, he was a trustee of Wesleyan University, where he is now a trustee emeritus. While email has vast governmental experience, I invited him here today to talk about the war in Israel with Hamas, as well as other threats to our democracy that we are facing today. So, welcome to the podcast. Emil. Frankel.
Emil Frankel: Thank you. Lyn great. And I appreciate your inviting me.
Lynn Schmidt: So what's keeping you up at night these days?
Emil Frankel: Emil well, I would say, I'm still most concerned, about the threats to American democracy. And I know you've been talking about that and interviewing a lot about that on your podcast, so I won't repeat that. But as a registered, Republican for 55 years, I left the party a week after or two weeks after Donald Trump was, elected president in 2016. So I'm now officially unaffiliated, although my, spirit and heart still rests with the Republican Party as I knew it. I was one of the founding members of the Rippin Society in the early 1960s, early and mid-1960s, kind of a ginger group that sought to reform Republican, policy. At that point, we, obviously lost the battle for the soul of the Republican Party, although what the party has become, is nothing like the Republican Party. It's not the Republican Party. I mean, the rhinos, are led by Donald Trump. If there's ever a Republican in name only, it's Donald Trump. I assure you, abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Dwight Eisenhower, and even Ronald Reagan would not recognize the people who control the Republican Party today. And that's a threat to democracy. We can't have one of our two major parties, rejecting, as it does obviously, not every person within the party and not every office holder, but the majority. And the leadership essentially rejects American liberal democracy and the basic tenets, the rule of law, and the kind of values and norms. And we can't survive as a democracy under those circumstances. It's not just institutions and constitution and laws, its norms and norms and traditions depend upon people. That continues. And obviously, the election of 2024, not only the presidential election, but the congressional election and state legislature, state legislative elections, are obviously of tremendous importance in holding us back. I mean, we've had a succession of elections like this, so I'm not prepared to say it's the most important in American history, but each of them keeps us from going over the brink, and I'm hopeful that that will be the case in 2024. So that keeps me awake, I would say, also in the moment.
Emil Frankel: And I know, you'd like us to talk about, the situation in the world. And obviously this also is another threat, I mean, internationally, to liberal democracy, the dominance of the principles and the nations, not only the United States, but the nations that lead the way in terms of democratic values and institutions and leaders. And, I'm not an expert, obviously, as you can tell from my resume. I'm hardly an expert on national security or foreign policy issues. I'm an interested observer, and always have been. And obviously, am like any American Jew, deeply, affected and concerned about the circumstances in Israel today and, what looks soon to be a major, military, action by the Israeli, Defense Forces, the IDF, against the, unbelievable, atrocities of the terrorists, organized in Hamas. and kind of what it means not only again in terms of the future of democratic values in that part of the world, but what it means to, Judaism and to, its impact, not only, obviously, on the population of Israel, but on, Jews throughout the world, including, obviously, in the you know, I guess I would just add a couple of things before we kind of chat about this that, had never really been involved in, ah, community and philanthropic activities. I'd spent most of my life raised and lived in Connecticut, and, never, although I was a member of a Reform temple, I really did not engage in, these issues. I've become deeply engaged in the last few years, frankly, out of a concern of what was happening to the Israeli government, which we'll talk about in a know the rule under Bibi Netanyahu and this racist, super nationalist, ultra-orthodox coalition he's put together to keep him out of jail, is, an enormous threat to the whole idea of Israel, and very troubling. So that engaged me in a set of activities. I'm an active member of J Street. Some of your listeners will be familiar with J Street, and, I've gotten active in my Reform temple here in Washington, DC. On kind of educating, these issues. And then, lo and behold, on October 7, this, attack occurred. I don't know even how to describe it, not even a military attack. It was a, carefully planned, action by terrorists, against Israel for the purpose of killing Jews. And inflaming, Israel, and its goals were not territorial gains, but murdering and abducting and torturing, Jews. And, how to respond to it and what the implications are, is obviously of utmost importance, I think, for.
Lynn Schmidt: People who are not Jewish. It's hard to wrap your head around the idea that there is a whole group of a whole population, that there are people on this earth that want to have eliminated. I mean, we all know about the Holocaust, but it's almost like we're reliving it in real time now, right, where people, can really understand the threat that Jews face all over the world.
Emil Frankel: Well, this action on October 7, which we don't know, the involvement of Iran, there are a lot of things involved. I'm sure everybody knows that Iran finances sponsors, I'm sure was involved in the planning of this exercise. Maybe the timing, and we're certainly aware of is certainly the implication of my comments and my involvement. I'm committed to the two state solution. I think Israel's, the action in the Israeli governments, particularly for most of the last 16 years, led by Bibi Netanyahu, has been to prevent a two state solution, to prevent, a Palestinian state from emerging, to deprive the Palestinians in the West Bank of their human, rights. And frankly, under this particular government, this right wing government, which Netanyahu is just the face, I mean, he's a creature of this government more than its leader, because, as I said, he wants to avoid jail. And, if the government collapses, he may be convicted in his three corruption trials. That's what motivates him. And, this government, actually, I would say, and there's been more acknowledgement of this, is really sponsoring a program of settler extremism. Not only expansion of the settlements in the West Bank, but settler extremism and ethnic cleansing. They want to drive the Palestinians out of the West Bank, or at least the, large portions of the West Bank. And that's unacceptable. That's unacceptable in terms of the values of a liberal democracy. And I might say it is absolutely antithetical to the values of Judaism, which is welcoming of strangers and recognizing basic rights, human rights, Palestinian as well as Jewish, Muslim as well as Jewish. But Hamas is dedicated, unlike the Palestinian Authority, which is weak and corrupt and all the rest. But the Palestinian Authority seeks, is committed to a two state solution that is, an Israel and a Palestinian state, side by side. Hamas is not Hamas'charter is for the destruction of Israel and the murder and elimination of Jews as people. That's what Hamas is all about. And that's what this was all. You know, again, I'm not an expert, but I have no doubts that the atrocities, the beheading of babies and soldiers, the rape, gang rapes of women, the abductions, et cetera, et cetera were designed to have maximum shock value, if I can put it that way. Because Hamas wants the IDF to undertake a ground incursion into Gaza. And I'm fearful about the effect and results of that, I might say. But, they think they can force the IDF into a stalemate, and a bloody stalemate with maximum casualties, in this case, to the soldiers in IDF. And so that's a real concern. But that's what they're about. They want to kill Jews and, destroy Israel.
Lynn Schmidt: There may be listeners that do not understand what the two state solution is. Can you maybe give a little bit of an overview about what that is?
Emil Frankel: Well, it kind of goes back to, the early 1990s. I might add tangentially, Lynn, that as a Republican, I'm committed to these causes because every Republican administration from Nixon through Bush 43 was committed to the two state solution, was committed to ending the occupation, Israeli occupation of the West Bank, was committed to ending the settlements. It's only, under Trump and the power of the, religious right within the Republican Party that has forced a change, if I can put a total 180 degree change in the policies and commitments of Republicans. So I'm proud of being part of a Republican tradition that is committed to this. And it goes back to, actually, the Bush 41 administration. Secretary Baker was deeply involved in negotiations, and then there were direct negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians. In 1993, I guess it was led to the so called Oslo Accord. Right? And the goal of the Oslo Accord was two states side by side that the Israelis with adjustments in the border as a result of the 67 war but essentially, two states a Palestinian state and an Israel side by side, hopefully living in peace and friendship. But some continued rights for the Israelis to prevent militarization of the Palestinian state. And that was what was supposed to happen. And then, in one of the most successful actions, I regret to say, undertaken by any individual, a super nationalist religious right Jew assassinated Yitzhak Rabin. And, a year or two later, Benjamin Netanyahu was against the two states, these two states, side by side, and withdrawal from many of the settlements far into the West Bank and so forth. He was determined to prevent that from happening. And he's been successful. He's been prime minister for 16 of the last 19 or 20 years, and has been successful in preventing the, goals of the Oslo Accords and of the Bush. And then the Clinton administrations, Bush 41 and Clinton administrations from, being achieved.
Lynn Schmidt: So email and I were standing up for democracy, really.
Emil Frankel: Yeah. Incidentally, you maybe have done this in earlier podcasts, but I also would urge, everyone to read Jeffrey Goldberg's, story article about General Milley.
Lynn Schmidt: Yes, we'll try to link that as well.
Emil Frankel: Yeah, I think the title of the article is The Patriot. And again, another person who, at key moments, stood up and protected, a rule of law, constitution, and American liberal democracy.
Lynn Schmidt: So, Emil, how are we going to get ourselves out of.
Emil Frankel: You know, step by don't? In the short and medium term, I don't have much hope for the Republican Party, such as nominally, it still is, and I think we just have to keep fighting this, particularly at the moment. The protection of the rule of law domestically is really critical. I mean, the courts continue to do their job, and prosecutors and so forth, and that has to be honored and respected. They've been stalwart generally, in terms of protecting, our institutions, and we have to stay with it, continue to try to support, despite the chaos within the Republican Party and the growing opposition, the isolationism of the Republican Party, which Dwight Eisenhower overcame in 1950.
Lynn Schmidt: Absolutely.
Emil Frankel: we have to kind of fight that battle again across the board to make sure we stay engaged in Ukraine, that we stay engaged in protecting. Know, I must say, and President Biden has been I think there's more going on in this than we know, I'm sure, but has also, I think made it clear to Netanyahu and the Netanyahu government that they need to be constrained not to overreach, not to act on emotion and a sense of vengeance. Because I think the risks in terms of a ground incursion into an urban environment are great. Our reaction to 911, unfortunately, was quite appropriate, I think, in the beginning. Our actions in Afghanistan initially, and overthrowing Taliban, and driving al Qaeda out of Afghanistan and so forth, and then the second Iraq War came along too much. Everybody acknowledges what that was, and I think the Israelis need to be careful, need to be respectful of the civilians in, Gaza, while they wage a war that the Israeli public demands. The Israeli public across the board, across the ideological progressive to national super nationalists are demanding, and I don't know whether it's achievable, I might say, but are, demanding that Hamas be destroyed. So it's pretty hard for the Israeli government, even a more liberal government, or centrist government, if you will, to stand up to that. But it's got to be done carefully, with discretion and constraint.
Lynn Schmidt: Yeah. Again, coming back domestically, I have hope for our country in the long term, because I interact with younger generations, and they give me hope. It's just getting through the short term, and that's the 2024 election I think, and we'll just have to just see what happens. But, again, I didn't invite you to talk about what keeps me up at night. But I think, we are in agreement that the threats to democracy here and abroad both weigh on us heavily.
Emil Frankel: Yes, for sure. And I appreciate the great job you're doing with your columns and podcasts to keep on making that point. I mean, that's part of the battle. It's going to be small steps and incremental steps and so forth to get us back on the right course. I think you have gotten to know me well enough. I am a bit glass is half empty kind of person, and I am concerned, pessimistic, if you will, in the short, but I remain optimistic in the long run. I think we'll get ourselves I'm not quite sure how, but I think we'll write the ship, in the long run.
Lynn Schmidt: Again, I go back to President Biden's speech last night where there was this overarching message about thinking about our values, our values as a country, as a United States. And if we can all just keep that going, I think we're going to be, let's, I guess.
Lynn Schmidt: Is there anything else you wanted to talk about, Emil, before we wrap it up?
Emil Frankel: Thank you. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about issues that are really very important to me, to all of.
Lynn Schmidt: Us, I think, or they should be. Absolutely. Well, I want to thank Emil, for joining me on the podcast today. I hope listeners enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. Make sure you subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast platform so you won't miss an episode of what keeps you up at night. Thanks again, Emil.
Emil Frankel: Thank you. Lynn.
