Asked to speak at a Christian church several months ago, Gil Shapiro of Freethought Arizona jokes that he needed smelling salts.
The invitation came from Dan Grossenbach, a volunteer teacher of an apologetics class at Catalina Foothills Church, a congregation of the Presbyterian Church in America.
In the class, Grossenbach, 40, teaches Christians how to better explain and address challenges to their faith. That means studying world religions, discussing moral issues and exploring key points of Christianity.
“We were going to cover secular humanism, and I thought it would be great to have a real live secular humanist there,” Grossenbach says.
A friend had made him familiar with the op-ed columns Shapiro, 68, often writes for the Arizona Daily Star.
“A friend passed (his articles) along and said, ‘Check this out. Look at this nonsense,’” Grossenbach says, laughing and clapping Shapiro’s shoulder.
“Don’t touch me, Dan,” Shapiro deadpans.
The two laugh.
They hadn’t expected friendship as a byproduct of their partnership.
In August, Shapiro presented “What a Secular Humanist Wants Christians to Know” during Grossenbach’s class. The next week, Grossenbach gave a rebuttal and then opened up the floor for questions to Shapiro.
On Sunday, Nov. 27, Shapiro will return the favor, giving the Freethought Arizona stage over to Grossenbach for the group’s monthly gathering. He will start a debate with Shapiro on whether Christianity is the best explanation for reality.
Again, rebuttals and questions will follow.
The goal here is not to win.
“There is the religious point of view and the secular point of view, and there will be some things where we can’t move on our position,” Shapiro says. “But there will be some things that we can. The first step is really understanding each other better.”
That’s why Grossenbach reached out to Shapiro — a move that he admits could be risky with its potential to confuse some believers.
“For me, that type of conversation just makes my faith stronger, and it just helps me figure out how to make a case from my side,” says Christy Sterling, a member of the church who attended both classes. “I definitely understand where (Gil) is coming from more.”
Grossenbach and Shapiro both agree that a worldview — whether tinted by Christianity or secularism — should be able to withstand criticism.
“I think the most honest approach is if you are going to believe something, you want it to be a belief or a fact that has survived all the criticism you can think of,” Shapiro says.
“What Dan is doing is saying, ‘Tell us where we’re going wrong. Give us your best shot, and if Christianity is still standing after that barrage, then it’s worth believing.’”
It goes the other way, too.
But this kind of conversation has to happen civilly — a model Shapiro and Grossenbach are representing in their presentations.
“As Christians, we are motivated by no greater purpose than bringing attention and fame to our God,” Grossenbach says. “While we don’t expect anyone to change in response to our actions or our arguments, we do hope God uses us to bring more people closer to him.”
At the same time, Freethought Arizona wants the opposite.
“It would be a benefit for all human beings to think like secularists without any superstition and just think rationally,” says Stephen Uhl, a Freethought Arizona board member. “If we could all get on the same rational page and get on without superstition and blind faith, it would be easy for us to be unified and work together.”
And yet Grossenbach and Shapiro remain partners — friends, even — in this pursuit of civil conversation.
“I think Gil and I get along pretty well, and it’s cool when you strongly disagree on issues ... and are able to not only get along with each other, but have convinced the leaders of our respective groups to endorse and support it,” Grossenbach says.
Before Shapiro spoke at Catalina Foothills, Grossenbach ran it by lead pastor Steve Ingino and other leadership. Shapiro, likewise, accepted the invite with the approval of the Freethought Arizona board.
“I know it’s surprising to think we would do that, but that’s actually what we think is helpful,” says executive pastor Paul Utnage. “Too often people are not talking to each other, and therefore we make a lot of assumptions.”
Grossenbach decided to accept the validity of the Bible and follow Jesus Christ after drifting away from his Protestant rearing. A federal investigator, he conducted a personal inquiry into Christianity, listening to arguments for and against the faith.
“I was emboldened by the evidence I saw bringing me back to Christianity,” he says.
Shapiro, on the other hand, left his Jewish upbringing. He began wrestling to reconcile the Holocaust and anti-Semitism with God’s promise to Abraham in the Hebrew Bible to protect his people, the Jews.
Conversion, while not impossible, would take some convincing for both men.
“We would love to see it happen,” Shapiro, a retired podiatrist, says. “I mean, Dan would love to see me get on my knees and accept Jesus as my lord and savior and confess my sins, and I’m in!”
“It’s not too late,” Grossenbach cuts in, laughing.
Shapiro continues.
“And I would love him to say, ‘He’s got a point there,’ and on the big spectrum there are some people who will change their minds,” Shapiro says.
But even if that doesn’t happen, the partnership is worth it — especially in this post-election climate, they say. This is about respecting differences, not compromising values.
They agree on this: Too much is lost when people forget how to disagree well. Information. Good solutions. Civility.
That’s why, after this next presentation, they’re open to continuing the conversations on specific subjects or with other Tucson faith leaders.
“We are seeking clarity over agreement,” Grossenbach says. “At least let us understand. There are so many things and values that we both agree on, like helping the poor and being good stewards of the environment, things we can work together on. But we’re not necessarily going to agree on the nature of God or if God exists. We think we have to agree all the time, but we don’t. We can get along just fine. ... And I think that’s what we did, right?”
On this, Shapiro agrees.
“Absolutely.”
